Robin B.: Hey everyone!
ColleenP (NH): Hi all!
Marta BP: Hi!
ChrisSanders: Hi
Marta BP: I missed these chats! Great to "see" you guys!
MelissaB: Hello
ChrisSanders: Aw, I sign into my account and then into the chat
Sandra Dodd: If anyone hasn't looked at /wonder, please do. I collected some synonyms there.
awe
curiosity
admiration
amazement
puzzlement
astonishment
spontaneous delight
Sandra Dodd: And there are quotes from unschoolers about unschooling there, so that should be the warm-up for anyone who hasn't read it already, please.
JennyC: that's been floating around in my head in combination with watching the news
JennyC: The only consistent positive thing in the news is sports, which is very popular and also very often inspires awe
SylviaWoodman: I never considered that before!
JennyC: I was thinking that it wasn't much of a coincidence and that people really do LIKE to be inspired and feel awe!
Sandra Dodd: Maybe watching the Olympics will be a good exercise for some people, as long as they can see those people as exceptional freaks of nature who've dedicated their lives to a particular skill,
Sandra Dodd: rather than as winners in a contest in which those watching in the audience are losers.
Sandra Dodd: I can't lose at any sport, because I'm not athletic. I'm not competing.
Sandra Dodd: but I can be in awe of someone's ability to catch and then throw a ball while moving through the air or across the ground.
Sandra Dodd: I can be really in awe of dancing or ice skating or diving.
ChrisSanders: My husband is very good at wondering and being awed!
ChrisSanders: He's pretty awesome! ;)
Sandra Dodd: Chris, do you ask him sometimes to tell you what he sees in something?
Sandra Dodd: Can he describe it?
ChrisSanders: Yes - he does.
ColleenP (NH): we have the opening ceremonies time/date marked on the calendar - I'm not even a remotely athletic person, but watching the athletes march in with their country flags, full of smiles, makes me happy every time!
Sandra Dodd: I went to a concert with Keith and his parents years ago, and i got a chill (goose bumps)from one part of the music. Later I mentioned that and asked if they ever got that feeling, and they all said no.
ChrisSanders: If it's visual he tries to capture it and he's pretty good at that.
Hannah: is there something about awe that is magnified if it's something we can't do? or can only do to a small extent (thinking of sport)
Sandra Dodd: Maybe a small extent helps, Hannah. Because I can play guitar, I can tell a great guitarist from a just good one.
Sandra Dodd: But maybe those who don't play guitar can be in awe of more guitar playing.
Hannah: I guess it's in the nuances - if you can't do it it's got some mystery to the awe whereas if you can do it to a small extent the awe is in the execution
Sandra Dodd: It's interesting, the idea that awe might can cure a headache. I got a headache about half an hour ago. Probably because I didn't eat breakfast, and had dinner kind of early. It feels like that kind of headache, so I've had a sandwich and might be feeling better soon.
Rebecca Allen: That's wild, Sandra, about others not getting chills at music. My hair stands on end almost entire concents.
Robin B.: Sandra, I get goosebumps with certain songs and phrases of music all the time.
ChrisSanders: I think having some experience or knowledge can help someone to feel in awe of exceptional skill or amazing feats. I'm thinking how much I enjoyed and was in awe of some America's Cup (sailing race) footage I was watching the other day. I don't think non-sailors would care much.
Sandra Dodd: I don't think the chat itself is likely to be awe-inducing, though one never knows...
ChrisSanders: Good reason to try lots of things.
Hannah: oh I dunno I like seeing how people take ideas and expand on them - that can be pretty awe inspiring
Sandra Dodd: I like to see someone cooking really quickly sometimes. Speedy food prep is impressive to me. I'm always very careful, and awkward at it.
alexPolikowsky: I am one of those that are in awe of a lot of little things people take for granted.
Sandra Dodd: It's helpful for unschooling, isn't it Alex. The ability to see beauty in normal things?
alexPolikowsky: Amazingly helpful!
Hannah: toddlers are great at that. I'm trying to learn from my 2 year old and not sweat the big stuff so much
Sandra Dodd: Yes
alexPolikowsky: We see things and share with our kids! I research to learn more if even just me
alexPolikowsky: I am like a little toddler. I never grew out of the awe phase.
alexPolikowsky: And our lives are full of awe!
Robin B.: I posted "Racing in Slow Motion" on my FB page. There is beauty in that, which awes me.
Marta BP: And it also helps to be more positive, doesn't it?
Rebecca Allen: Before we had kids, Matthew and I paused movies lots to look things up. I remember friends chuckling at us about that.
Hannah: that's great Alex
Marta BP: I mean, being able to find the wonder in small things contributes to being more positive.
Rebecca Allen: And as parents, we look things up even more!
Hannah: I have spent so many years as a cynic that it's been a big learning curve for me since I've had kids
Jill Parmer: I've had a couple of physical reactions to awe. One is an uplifting feeling with maybe goosebumps. The other is getting teary eyed.
alexPolikowsky: I could probably describe easily 50 things that I was in awe yesterday and it never gets old. From the baby Killdeer that hatched by the pool ( we have been wathying the eggs) to my garden, a new baby clf, the kittens, the county fair Miracle of Birth Center.... It goes on and on just in one day.
Robin B.: Chris, I was thinking that as a photographer, having a sense of wonder would be important! Maybe that's why Rick is so good.
JennyC: I grew up with cynics. It took a lot of years to stop being that way automatically!
alexPolikowsky: jILL i GET THOSE Goose bumps and teary eye symptons too!
ColleenP (NH): Jill that's me too - goosebumps or tears. When we see something really fantastic (like when a dragonfly landed on my husband's toe yesterday!!) Robbie will say with a smile "is this a tissue moment, mom?"
Jill Parmer: I was thinking the same thing, Robin. About Rick's being a photographer.
Robin B.: Cynicism is the antithesis of wonder.
ChrisSanders: I do the teary-eyed thing a lot -- not so much goosebumps
Robin B.: I do both...
Marta BP: We moved to a new house just two days ago... I'm still in awe with everything here, but especially with my husband's joy and my daughter's smile!!!
Robin B.: Nice, Marta.
alexPolikowsky: I get in awe at looking at my kids when they are happy! I do not know if it is good or not for them but I call them beautiful all the time! Because I look at them and I am in awe. I love that I see my husband do the same.
ChrisSanders: I do the same thing, Alex. Sometimes Rick and I remark to each other about how amazing our kids are.
JennyC: I wish the word "awful" meant full of awe instead of bad! I'd rather be full of awe than to just have some in "awesome"
Sandra Dodd:
JennyC: very true!
Sandra Dodd: (h)awe (h)awe (h)awe
Robin B.: I got a t-shirt for Senna that says: "Without me, it's just aweso"
Sandra Dodd: aweso true!
JennyC:
ColleenP (NH): I did like when someone had a typo or spelled wrong the other day, and said peace full instead of peaceful. I like the 2-L full - like extra much peace!
Rebecca Allen: Love that, Robin!
Jill Parmer: Hope this past from Etymology online shows up correctly.awfully c.1300, "so as to inspire reverence," from awful + -ly (2). Meaning "dreadfully, so as to strike one with awe" is recorded from late 14c. As a simple intensifier, "very, exceedingly," recorded from c.1830. awful c.1300, agheful "worthy of respect or fear," from aghe, an earlier form of awe, + -ful. Replaced O.E. egefull. Weakened sense "very bad" is from 1809; weakened sense of "exceedingly" is by 1818.
Hannah: lol Jill I was just doing the same
Jill Parmer: *paste
alexPolikowsky: you guys are funny and fun! Love playing with words ( so does MD)
JennyC: I find that if I want to feel awe, all it takes is shifting my perspective to receive the world in that way. Where the mundane becomes better than that
ChrisSanders: Zoe is preparing to play lazer tag for the first time tomorrow, and she's planning her attire. She will be dressed in all black and wear black biking gloves. We were talking about her excitement and she said she may not win but she will look awesome!
Robin B.: "Awe" was usually in reference to God, wasn't it? And his "awe full" might? Not a happy thing.
ChrisSanders: I'm going to braid her hair like Katniss Everdeen.
JennyC: meaning, so exciting and great that it might strike one dead!
Marta BP: I agree Jenny. It's almost as if anything can make me feel awe, if I'm open to it.
Sandra Dodd: I think so, Robin. "Fear and awe" as a phrase kind of went together for a while, I think.
alexPolikowsky: Cool Chris!
Hannah: I am in awe of anyone who can braid like that ;)
Robin B.:
JennyC: I used to do really elaborate braids on Chamille! I miss that! Margaux won't let me touch her head at all! She's got a sensitive scalp
Elaine G-H: the sky is a source of awe here. It's wow! look at that rainbow, cloud, colour of sky! esterday there was a big flock of seagulls and we are about the fursthest you can get from the sea in the UK. They were circling catching thermals, it was very awesome!
ChrisSanders: Her courage to try new things is awe inspiring to me.
SylviaWoodman: The days between Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur are known as the the Days of Awe
Sandra Dodd: Can you explain that to us, Sylvia, or is it Top Secret?
Hannah: awe & dread were about reverence and that understanding of how powerful god was and so there was a sense of potential doom attached I guess
alexPolikowsky: I think it help me that I had a mom that always stopped to smell the roses ! My mom would say: "Today is too beautiful to be locked up at school. Lets go to the beach! "
Hannah: yes we had seagulls too Elaine (Oxfordshire). The sun was beneath them so they looked silvery like shoals of fish
alexPolikowsky: I think it is because you should look back and be grateful for all you have!
Elaine G-H: Same here Hannah (Derby) reflecting the light
alexPolikowsky: About those days!
Hannah: y 5 year old was very excited by them and my excitement - my 2 year old was too busy splashing to care lol
Elaine G-H: My youngest is 15, she was busy so asked me to take a photo of them. Not sure if the photos will turn out ok though
JennyC: I aspire to be a person who inspires awe in others! I know people who just do that simply because they exist!
Sandra Dodd:
A lame but true example. Maybe it was "cute" and excitement, not "awe," but a still-in-training puppy was staying in my room in a friend's family's parent's house and had gone on expensive carpet, and gone on other floors, and then the third morning did this on the terrace (I had left the door open so she could go outside, and she finally did):
JennyC: Robin! haha!
Sandra Dodd: a little heart. I thought it was sweet. And arranged so neatly on the tiles that way, too.
ChrisSanders: lol
JennyC: OMG!!!!
Hannah: rofl
JennyC: a little bit of love!
ColleenP (NH): LOL that is awesome, for sure
Rebecca Allen: A poop pretzel!
Elaine G-H: Lol. That's a well organised creative puppy!
Marta BP: Hahaha
Marta BP:
Sandra Dodd: I figure I could have seen dog poo, or I could have seen art. So I took a photo, and now I can share it with all of you.
Jill Parmer: I was hoping Sylvia would explain the Days of Awe. Maybe she's typing?
Sandra Dodd: It was a marble-tiled terrace, 13th floor of luxury apartments in Bangalore. Just saying'.
ColleenP (NH): it's all about perspective, so much of life
Robin B.: Love it. Poop pretzel :-)
SylviaWoodman: I think it is supposed to be a time of reflection on the year that has passed and time to resolve to do better in the year to come.
JennyC: for some people that could be all positive and happy and for some people it could be cynical and defeatest
alexPolikowsky: a time to forgive too Sylvia.
SylviaWoodman: There is also a lot of not so great stuff about how God had a big book where he writes everyone's name and everyone is hoping to be "inscribed in the book of Life for the next year"
Robin B.: How long is the time between Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur, Sylvia?
SylviaWoodman: ten days
Robin B.: A goodly amount of time to reflect.
alexPolikowsky: And a time to be thankful too.
ColleenP (NH): the woman I work for describes the days of awe as "our time to feel guilty" - she says that's how her parents presented it to her, but that she decided not to go there with her own son and left the guilt part out and just talked about reflection, instead
SylviaWoodman: When I was a kid I was terrified that my name woudn't be in it for the following year.
JennyC: it makes God sound like an elitist!
Sandra Dodd: God is always an elitist, no matter who describes him/her/it
SylviaWoodman: Jews like that sort of stuff - People of the Book; Chosen People etc.
Robin B.: Would that mean you would die, Sylvia?
Sandra Dodd: (Now Jenny will try to describe some fantasy god who loves everyone equally... :-)
JennyC: maybe that's why I've never been a good Christian! I don't like elitism!
Robin B.: Snort!
Robin B.: If you weren't in the "Book of Life" I mean?
JennyC: I did have my own little reality when I was a kid and in that reality god loved everyone equally! and then I met an atheist at my church and that changed my life forever!
Sandra Dodd: Odd place to meet your first atheist, at church.
SylviaWoodman: Yes there is even stuff in the liturgy about how people would die (who by land, and who by sea and who by earthquake or am I confusing this with Paul Revere's ride...)
Sandra Dodd: haa... I was thinking Paul Revere too when I first started reading it.
SylviaWoodman: That isn't the kind of Judiasm that I'm passing on to my kids
ChrisSanders: So, I think trying to see the world through young kids' eyes can help us move toward wonderment (is that a word?)
Sandra Dodd: Yes, and yes, Chris.
JennyC: I wish I still had all those letters that I wrote back and forth to my atheist friend! He was studying our church for a thesis in college.
ChrisSanders: I was listening to our local public radio this morning and they were interviewing "the last river rat," Kenny Salway. He was talking about how helpful taking a walking stick with you on hikes is because you're more likely to slow down and observe. He described how you can pause and lean on it, use it to gently move a snake or small animal out of your path, measure the depth of a creek or mud etc. He also talked about the importance of letting the kids lead the hike and not hurrying them. The Last River Rat (Iowa Public Radio—link repaired in 2021) I quit listening though, when a caller called in and started complaining about TV watching and video games -- and Kenny started agreeing with him.
JennyC: I went to a weird church
Robin B.: Ack. I usually turn shows off when I hear that. I've gotten all the good stuff out of it by then.
SylviaWoodman: Yes, I'm noticing that Harry (6) is more theologically inclined than Gabriella (8). Gabriella is more skeptical about things than Harry is.
ChrisSanders: I think there are atheists at our local UU church
Sandra Dodd: I had a profound change when I wanted to show Marty, when he was about a year old, the new white tigers the zoo had, and he was more interested in a crow on a fat rope.
Jill Parmer: Ohmygosh, yes, Chris. When I did daycare, I was so often in awe of the kids' reasoning, joy, how they looked at things, how they did things. I loved listening to them chat about the world.
Rebecca Allen: Quinn calls question marks "mystery marks".
ChrisSanders: Love that, Rebecca!
Robin B.: I think I'm the only atheist in the hula community. Holy doodle there's a lot of praise Jesus goin' on.
JennyC: colonization will do that!
ColleenP (NH): seeing how truly delighted kids are by the world, and not doing anything to squish that delight but instead joining it - an excellent way to experience awe and wonder as an adult, for sure!
Sandra Dodd: I like that, "mystery mark" idea.
Elaine G-H: I always see question marks as a cat's rear end.
alexPolikowsky: Robin I think I am the only atheist in my house!
Robin B.: Senna might be a pagan (which is to some, an atheist).
SylviaWoodman: We think the "Mystery Mark" is the picture of Sherlock Holmes on the spine of a book.
Elaine G-H: I think the majority of people in the UK are atheist but many put C of E (Church of England) because that's what you do
Sandra Dodd:
I took that recently in the train station in Amsterdam.
I wondered.
ChrisSanders: big difference! I doubt there are many atheists or pagans who would call a pagan an atheist.
JennyC: add a magnifying glass to the mix and you've got Nancy Drew
Jill Parmer: Chris and I got to spend some days recently with our kids and the rest of the group that talks and plays on Skype. I loved doing all kinds of things with them, and going places with them, and hearing what they thought about things, and watching them together.
alexPolikowsky: I agree Chris!
ColleenP (NH): Robbie yesterday was trying to beat a particularly hard part of Pokemon, and he was whispering "please... please... please..." - when he noticed I heard him, he said "I'm just saying please to me, Mom - not to anyone else..." - guess the idea of praying to win Pokemon isn't a fit with him :-)
alexPolikowsky: Very cool Sandra. I love train stations!
ChrisSanders: Jill gets to hear all of the cool teen convos!
JennyC: via skype?
Rebecca Allen: Cool photo!
ChrisSanders: yes, and in person
JennyC: me too.. ten convos
JennyC: loads and loads of teens here most of the time
Jill Parmer: The amount of enjoyment and love for those kids, gives me a pressure feeling in my chest. Maybe that's another feeling of awe?
Sandra Dodd: If it's not fear, Jill. Pressure in the chest is awe or fear. (Joking, maybe.)
Rebecca Allen: Or a heart attack!
SylviaWoodman: I know lots of people who were motiviated to make big changes in their life as a result of a heart attack!
Parmer: Still here, sitting in a chair, so...no to the heart attack. :-)
Rebecca Allen: Glad to hear it, Jill.
some chit chat deleted
Sandra Dodd: Let's get back to awe, and how we can make choices that lead toward it more.
JennyC: it hurts me now, to hear cynicism now that I've intentionally stepped away from it
alexPolikowsky: I was asked what I did in a hard moment where I got my strength from ( since I do not believe in a god, higher power or whatever) I said all I needed to do was look at my kids and family and the beauty surrounding me. Do I need more than that? NO! I am in awe of my family, children and all the beauty around! I do not need a God to give me strength.
JennyC: me too Alex!
Sandra Dodd: In Europe there are war memorials everywhere.
Rebecca Allen: And plague memorials! |
Sandra Dodd: That didn't do me or anyone else any good.
Sandra Dodd: And I needed to not be focussing on the grief of mothers who are now themselves dead,too.
JennyC: I understand the sentiment for sure, but I wish that we could put memorials up for happy and good events instead
Sandra Dodd: Jenny, you could do that. Put up happy memorials. Petition for your town to do that.
Robin B.: Yes!
JennyC: hey, maybe I can spend all the rest of my days, after my kids have moved away, putting up happy memorials of momentous occasions for others to be inspired
ColleenP (NH): we've been going to a lot of old forts in NH and Maine this summer, and I've been focusing on the really cool old buildings, and the wonder of the idea that 50 or 100 or in some cases 400 years ago, people were living and walking in these same areas, but in much different circumstances. Helps me see the beauty rather than the tragedy of war.
Jill Parmer: I think chatting about things one wonders about, or pointing out something I think is beautiful, or interesting, or odd, or delightful seems to be contagious. My kids do it too, and it's uplifting and fun.
ColleenP (NH): well not the beauty of war - the beauty of war-related things
Jill Parmer: Why wait until your kids are gone, Jenny?
Sandra Dodd: I saw one in Windsor! An obelisk set up to commemorate jubilee events and ox roasts in a certain park in the city of Windsor, and we were at one. So it might be carved on one of the blank sides of that monument. I hope so.
JennyC: I really like the idea of putting up happy memorials
Sandra Dodd: Jill, I agree, too.
JennyC: I don't think my kids would be into that at all, but maybe
Jill Parmer: Yeah, Colleen, I think that adds to awe, too. To think about what people did then...walking, living, etc.
Rebecca Allen: Family photos on walls are like mini memorials.
ColleenP (NH): we found out one fort started as a castle in the 1600s - just amazing
Sandra Dodd: Maybe it doesn't need to involve your kids, Jenny. Or you could keep it in mind as a project for when they're grown.
Marta BP: Can a person have such a rough life that it's hard to feel awe? Or can a person change their perspective in order to feel awe and let that feeling run through her and uplift her, even with all of the hard things they have going on?
Sandra Dodd: Depends, Marta.
Some people cling to negativity.
JennyC: some people get stuck in sad and never leave that
ColleenP (NH): Marta I remember Sandra talking somewhere online (maybe Facebook?) about Anne Frank recently - if she could find awe and wonder from where she hid, I think anyone can
JennyC: and some people cling to hope so much that they never grasp what is right in front of them
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes photos on walls ARE memorials.
ColleenP (NH): not that anyone will - but anyone can - no matter how rough their life
Jill Parmer: When I was visiting this group of friends recently, Addi and I and one or several other kids would go walking with us at night. And we made up all sorts of stories about the yards or the homes we saw. That ended up being one of the most fun, and talked about things we did. It was so simple...an evening walk.
Marta BP: Yes, Colleen. Indeed.
JennyC: we live near a huge greenway and when you walk on the paths, you get to peek into the backyards of people! I think that is very interesting
Rebecca Allen: We do that while watching television or commercials sometimes, Jill. We mute it, then make up a goofy story.
Sandra Dodd: If there is something physical, in a biochemical way, about the feeling of awe, and if that is healthy and adaptive and contributes to human growth and intelligence and wellbeing, then that is part of the purpose of religion.
Hannah: I think there's a value in taking a breath or a pause and that can be because awe has stopped us in our tracks but it can also be a conscious moment in the day
Sandra Dodd: And it's part of the purpose of ceremonies.
JennyC: and the last time we went out for a bike ride we saw a bald eagle and that was pretty exciting!
Sandra Dodd: People who can see that are richer right then, Hannah.
SylviaWoodman: I think that is what is behind the idea of Sabbath - setting a day apart. Also the idea of fasting. It is Ramadan now and my childhood friend who was raised Roman Catholic is fasting for Ramadan in solidarity with her new husband who is from Africa.
alexPolikowsky: Talking about TV! TV is a good place to see things that are awesome! Just yesterday we saw WILD RUSSIA on The national geographic or animal planet chanel and it was pretty amazing!
Sandra Dodd: Aerial photos can be awe-inducing for me. Seeing something from a different perspective.
Marta BP
Speaking of awe and music (a while ago, that is), I'm in awe with this chat and this youtube video:
One Direction - What Makes You Beautiful (5 Piano Guys, 1 piano) - ThePianoGuysYouTube � 3:21
Marta BP: Goosebumps
Hannah: it takes conscious thought and will to still ourselves enough to allow us to see awe - often I'm too busy running around - but yes richer when it happens
Sandra Dodd: I downloaded an iPad slide show (you can rearrange and watch it different ways) called Above France, made by National Geographic Traveler.
ColleenP (NH): we watched a Steven Hawking documentary the other day and it gave me goosebumps - definitely awe-inspiring
alexPolikowsky: And Google maps and Google earth are full of aerial pictures that are awesome! I can spend hours looking at it!
Robin B.
Here's the Racing in Slow Motion video I mentioned:
Racing In Slow Motion IV YouTube 15:52
alexPolikowsky: Will have to check that later ! I am in an ancient computer and have to take my laptop in to fix the fan. It will not boot up!
Sandra Dodd: Oooh. They're playing WITH a piano.
Marta BP: Yes Sandra! Amazing isn't it?
Robin B.: That is pretty cool, Marta. I love it when they all shift at once!
JennyC: it makes me want a grand piano!
Marta BP: Me too Jenny!
ChrisSanders: Thanks for sharing that Marta!
JennyC: we watched a documentary type thing the other day about small insects and it was really really cool. All the teens watched it. There were 2 that started off cynical and we convinced them it was totally cool and they watched and enjoyed something that they otherwise would have turned off
Robin B.: Were the cynical ones schooled?
Sandra Dodd: I don't see how to get that video off the screen and I can't read underneath it.
catia maciel: i'm awe of my son speaking english. We are portuguese and he is saying words in english that he learnd from musics we sing, camping with english speaking people and his best friend who is also english speaker. I'ts just magic! (1st time here. thanks
Hannah
love that Marta - reminds me of this
Somebody That I Used To Know - WOTE Parody! Key of Awesome #55!YouTube
Sandra Dodd: Catia, I saw kids in India who knew two languages and then learned Hindi from watching cartoons on TV.
Hannah: I love the thought of taking a common instrument and working as a team
Robin B.: Hooray for cartoons.
catia maciel: (no, sorry :( i will improve it
Sandra Dodd: I was thinking about bugs earlier for awe. Butterflies.
Robin B.: I learned about classical music from Bugs Bunny.
Sandra Dodd: beetles.
JennyC: Microcosmos... That's the name of the documentary, which isn't really a documentary but more of captivating video put to music
ColleenP (NH): dragonflies!! we've been stalking dragonflies around our yard for days - Robbie to touch them, me to photograph them!
Rebecca Allen: Bees! I spend time every day watching bees.
Sandra Dodd: I've been paying more attention to birds, because of Deb Lewis knowing one kind of dove from another.
ColleenP (NH): and hummingbirds - they are so magical I tear up every single time I see one/!
Sandra Dodd: I've always fed birds but mostly ignored them otherwise.
Marta BP: Constança does the same thing, Cátia! Sometimes she'll tell me, "Mom, let's speak English" and then starts to make some sounds that really sound like English! (we see a lot of youtube videos in English and sometimes her father and I speak in English with each other)
ChrisSanders: I was amazed at the diversity of birds we have around here -- once I started paying attention. Now I feed them to bring them closer.
JennyC: the racing video reminds me of stunt work and how cool that is
Sandra Dodd: The danger from encouraging awe (rather than letting it develop naturally) is causing a child to be so enthralled with birds that he hates his cat if it catches one.
ChrisSanders: My mom gave me a "global birding" book and now has me thinking about traveling more.
Robin B.: We have a bird feeder attached to our window and sometimes we wait for them to figure out what they are. I *love* birds - my favorite book as a kid was a Golden Book of Birds.
Sandra Dodd: Or loves spiders so much that he won't like me when I say I killed seven black widows the other night.
ColleenP (NH): robins built a nest inside our playscape last year and 3 eggs hatched - we watched the baby birds every day and took photos, til they finally grew up and flew off - it was really cool
alexPolikowsky: Sandra Hopefully nest years the birds will have arrived when you come to Minnesota. We have some fun ones that we watch every yesar. The Killdeers are awesome ( they pretend they are injured if you aproach the nest) , the barn swallows are fabulous and fly like bomber jets or acrobatic planes and then there are the blue birds!
ColleenP (NH): this year we have almost-tame robins in the back yard and we're pretty sure they're last year's babies, just used to us so not scared
Robin B.: I love barn swallows. They look like they're having so much fun!
Rebecca Allen: The Cornell School of Ornithology is so cool. I recommend visiting if you are ever in Ithaca! http://www.birds.cornell.edu/Page.aspx?pid=1478
JennyC: now that there is a bald eagle nest in the greenway, all the other birds make a big to do every morning
ChrisSanders: Their website is awesome for identifying birds
ColleenP (NH): bookmarking that site!
Elaine G-H: I think seasonal events are awesome. We look forward to seeing the bats in the spring and swifts in the summer, also the first green shoot from the ground and the first strawberry
Sandra Dodd: I think digital cameras can help parents help children to see beauty.
alexPolikowsky: They are amazing Robin!. WE have a couple nests inside of a room in the barn that we leave the window open for the parents and we can see everthing until they fly away!
Rebecca Allen: Their lab of bird sounds is so cool! Cara Barlow linked to them today on facebook and reminded me of that.
Elaine G-H: I still feel excited about those things
Sandra Dodd: Before cutting a beautiful loaf of bread or cake or casserole, if you take a photo of it...
Marta BP: "The danger from encouraging awe (rather than letting it develop naturally) is causing a child to be so enthralled with birds that he hates his cat if it catches one."
Sandra Dodd: Some of the best photography EVER is in cookbooks and food magazines, because they pose it with beautiful backgrounds and they consider everything--tablecloth, dishes, everything that will be in the photo. And angle, and lighting.
ColleenP (NH): Elaine I agree - the first snow is still magical every year for me even though I've seen many, many first snows of the year!
ChrisSanders: I was in South Carolina (for the first time ever) recently and kept hearing birds that reminded me of being at my mom's in Florida. She lives on an island that is a National Bird Sanctuary
Sandra Dodd: I have a recipe printed out with a picture of chicken vindaloo that looks HORRIBLE. That's an exception, though, because most of the photos are glorious.
JennyC: it's a bit like when parents are hyper vigilant about being eco friendly and earth friendly that their kids get upset if they see litter or watch someone throw away a plastic bottle instead of recycling
Hannah: and blow cigarette smoke over it so it looks like steam... there's a whole art to faking food pictures ;)
alexPolikowsky: I do not think it is about encoraging awe per se. I think it is the way parents may talk to kids and make them either feel guilty for people destroying nature or making them feel responsible if anything happens to nature around them.
Hannah: well making them look better than when I cook them
Marta BP: Yes Jenny, I see what you mean.
Sandra Dodd: Marta, I think I mean if a mother "teaches" her child that birds are perfect and always beautiful and must be always held as sacred, then what happens when one is killed by a bird or a car? Will the child flip out?
Jill Parmer: Sandra, is that awe though? The idea of encouraging it? Isn't that getting in the way of what naturally occurs? That sounds more like pushing an agenda, to me.
Sandra Dodd: I don't like parents creating situations that intensify flip-outs.
alexPolikowsky: Exactly Jenny!
JennyC: my sister does that with her kids with grammar and classic books
alexPolikowsky: That is what I was thinking too Jill that is why I do not think it has anything to do with awe.
Sandra Dodd: I agree, Jill.
Rebecca Allen: Quinn's friend was very upset with her the other day, because she stepped on an ant. On purpose. Quinn shrugged and said, "it's just an ant." The friend said, "But it was just walking!" I didn't feel a need to add anything to that conversation.
Sandra Dodd: So I think awe is natural and though we can appreciate it when it happens, I don't think we should "require" it. 🙂
Hannah: I don't think you can force awe on others - they either get it or they don't
JennyC: but it sure is cool to be able to see what is so awe inspiring for others
Jill Parmer: About food pictures... I think some people should stop posting many of them on facebook. One's tasty lentil soup looks like a bowl of something else to my eyes, many times.
ColleenP (NH): Speaking of birds being killed, we were driving in the car the other day and almost ran over a squirrel. As we drove by it on the side of the road sort of shaking itself off, Robbie called out "have a good life squirrel, however brief..." He seems to have a good sense of awe combined with a good sense of reality
Robin B.: I remember a mom who would not let her daughter eat ice cream bars *in case Nestle made them, and you never know if that's been covered up somehow*. Her daughter would binge on them whenever she was with her dad. She went on an awe-inducing sailboat trip on the inside passage of B.C. and that's the only thing she could talk about was the ice cream bars.
alexPolikowsky: Yes because my husband is very happy my garden looks very good this year but he is not in awe of the plants like I am everyday when I check it!
JennyC: I think that is basically being open minded vs close minded whether you can see awe in things or others or be open to it
Marta BP: Thanks guys, for clarifying. It was helpful.
Hannah: I boycott Nestle but I bought my son a nestle lolly the other day - much better in the grand scheme of things to let him make his own decision when he's ready than to deny him the one lolly he wanted in the cabinet
Sandra Dodd: Oh, Robin, "in case Nestle..." That poor mom's life is ruined and she's passing it on.
Robin B.: Yes.
alexPolikowsky: You need to be open ! Yes very important I think.
JennyC: it's a step beyond appreciating what the world has and for some people taste can be very awe inspiring
Robin B.: Orgasmic, in fact, Jenny :-)
Sandra Dodd: This is a danger in all kinds of ways. I want to look at this a bit. It happens with school groups on field trips. -=- She went on an awe-inducing sailboat trip on the inside passage of B.C. and that's the only thing she could talk about was the ice cream bars.-=-
JennyC: Margaux is that way, which is why I think she likes candy and dessert items so much, it's like an awe inspiring taste adventure for her
Marta BP: "He seems to have a good sense of awe combined with a good sense of reality"
Sandra Dodd: Kids on school trips can't see the museum because they're so excited to be able to stand around with other kids and to talk!
Elaine G-H: I gave up involvement with campaigns, boycotting and giving up stuff and my own mental health was much improved by it so it must've made life better for my children. I was sooo uptight!
Sandra Dodd: I love the tales of Robbie. 🙂
Robin B.: Oh, I see a blog title!
Sandra Dodd: Elaine, there was a dad in the audience when I spoke in England a couple of weeks ago. Week and a half ago. (wow)
ColleenP (NH): I'm sorry do I talk about him too much??? He cracks me up and I can't help but share
Sandra Dodd: He brought up "a boycott" and I said 'Yeah, nestle?" Yes, he said.
Elaine G-H: I think that type of uptight might be more prevalent in home ed circles in the UK. I am swamped by it
Sandra Dodd: He was going to use that as a reason, an overpowering and singular reason, not to give his children choices.
Robin B.: No, Colleen, not at all. We love the stories and your wonder in his awesomeness :-)
Elaine G-H: -> an overpowering and singular reason, not to give his children choices <- Ouch!
Sandra Dodd: So I suggested maybe the boycott wasn't worth clinging to. That it was ruining lives in England, while not hurting Nestle at all.
ColleenP (NH):
Sandra Dodd: No, Colleen, seriously, I like the stories and photos. I wish I could have met him last May
JennyC: pick your battles I guess!
ColleenP (NH): I wish you could have to - next time :-)
Hannah: or don't foist your dogma on others maybe :?
alexPolikowsky: My kid is more important then Nestle.
Robin B.: Yes.
JennyC: there are some things I care about a lot but to do anything about it would require energy taken away from happy moments with my kids
Jill Parmer: Love Robbie stories, and Mo-pug. S/he looks like a hoot.
Robin B.: And filling kids' heads with the misery of others doesn't make them happier.
alexPolikowsky: NO it does not!
Elaine G-H: I think filling adults heads with misery isn't a good thing either. It's contagious
Sandra Dodd: I know the argument, that there is no peace until all have peace, but that is a big old fallacy and foolishness. There never has been universal peace and never, ever could be.
alexPolikowsky: That is a good point Elaine
JennyC: we have an extra kid here... surprised right? She's here specifically because her own home isn't happy and she wants to be around happy and be happy so we are helping with that
ColleenP (NH): I just got a bumper sticker from Cara Barlow with the "world peace begins at home - be nicer to your kids" quote - i LOVE that!!
Elaine G-H: Love that bumper sticker ColleenP
Marta BP: I've been picking my battles to the point that I'm thinking "But I have no battles at the moment" and I'm living a much more peaceful life. I choose to focus on my family, my daughter, my husband, me.
Sandra Dodd: If one kid pukes and the others crowd around and then from the sight and smell of it one of THEM puke, how many more people should rush and look?
Rebecca Allen: Sandra, that happened (almost) to us recently. We were at a bounce place, and a kid started puking. Quinn and her friends were gawking, so I told them to stop. I was surprised the other moms didn't say anything.
Jill Parmer: A Home of Awe - with a boy and his dog!
ColleenP (NH): :-)
JennyC: she went to dinner with her mom last night and the one thing that her mom kept going on about was that our home was a negative and unhappy environment and that her daughter should get out now
ColleenP (NH): Jenny your house was negative, or her house was?
Sandra Dodd: Jenny, the mom saying that your-Jenny's house was negative?
JennyC: the mom was claiming that our home was, but she left hers to get away from all the negative yuck that her mom dishes out to be here where life is much much happier
Robin B.: Jenny, she's lying and her daughter knows it.
JennyC: oh, of course!
Robin B.: So weird.
Elaine G-H: I remember Sandra saying something about avoiding bad news if it meant it made you unhappy as that wasn't good for anyone, or something along those lines. A big fat lighbulb moment for me and a *duh* one too lol
Sandra Dodd: Elaine, I'm surprised more people can't see that.
Elaine G-H: Sandra it took me aaaaggges to see it.
Sandra Dodd: But there is a contagious (you're right) feeling that it is right and good and noble and "compassionate" to wallow in negative news stories, and to be indignant and to feel sympathetic for strangers who have suffered misfortune. But the strangers aren't helped by distant strangers' days having been ruined. Even if they knew it, it wouldn't help a bit.
JennyC: Sandra, that idea breeds self righteousness in the yuckiest way
alexPolikowsky: We are already having money shortage here I do not want to focus on anything that is depressing. I have been focusing in the good we have. It really works, If you notice all the good around you it makes you feel better and a lot less anxious .
Sandra Dodd: Very nice, Alex.
JennyC: it's like the folks that go and feed homeless people to make themselves feel good, but would never ever ever in a million years actually give anything meaningful
Elaine G-H: I've had to ask friends on facebook that if they can remember can they keep me out of any sharing of distressing things
JennyC: it's soooooo true Alex!
ChrisSanders: Jenny - how is feeding homeless people not giving anything meaningful?
Rebecca Allen: What do you mean by meaningful, Jenny?
Sandra Dodd: Single childless people, married childless people, retired people... that should be enough people to solve the world's ills.
ColleenP (NH): Jenny or the people who, on their way home from Sunday church, nearly run over pedestrians in the crosswalk - like church/god/feel good time is done and now it's back to life so get out of my way!!
Sandra Dodd: So... we only have fifteen minutes and we're talking about depressing things again. I might've caused that; sorry if so.
JennyC: it's like the difference between doing a good deed once a week, or being a good person doing good and kind things because you are a good and kind person. I'm not explaining this well at all, sorry
Sandra Dodd: Though we can't prescribe awe, is there advice we could take out of here for other people? I like what Alex just wrote.
Sandra Dodd: Alex wrote: "We are already having money shortage here I do not want to focus on anything that is depressing. I have been focusing in the good we have. It really works, If you notice all the good around you it makes you feel better and a lot less anxious ."
alexPolikowsky: Actaully I was thinking all the great stuff I have, my kids, my husband, a nice home, an old working car, my garden and so much more!
Robin B.: Some people do good things to be seen doing good things, not because they really want to do it.
Sandra Dodd: Robin, that's better than not doing good things at all.
ChrisSanders: do the people who are in need care what their motivation is? Just thinking...
ColleenP (NH): if you can find joy in the little things, it makes the big things seem not so big - definitely!
alexPolikowsky: The little things are usaully the Big things Colleen!
ColleenP (NH): exactly Alex
SylviaWoodman: I read a story once making the argument that by using the word "Just" makes you miss out on all the miracles that surround us daily.
Sandra Dodd: "Just" can be a buzz kill for sure, Sylvia.
JennyC: this is all stemming from recently unfriending someone on facebook who was espousing some pretty cruel ideas towards people who are poor, yet she spends time feeding homeless people
Elaine G-H: I follow Friends of the Asian elephant and they fill me with awe. Who knew that people make prosthetic legs for injured elephans and set them up with IVs to treat conditions
Robin B.: Yes, that's true. I was just trying to explain what I think Jenny was saying. Doing good always helps.
Sandra Dodd: I know the Bible story of the widow's mite, and the recommendation of giving all you have, but the reality is that if Brad Pitt donates a million dollars, that's better than if a pensioner donated half his income and then was cold or hungry.
Marta BP: Do you know what I have done lately whenever I'm feeling a bit down (usually because of my parents)? I listen to one of your talks! It makes me laugh, it makes me think, it makes me smile, it makes me feel awe and it makes me go right back to my daughter and my husband and touch them and kiss them. :D
ColleenP (NH): yes Sandra which makes it somewhat ironic that those have the least often give the most (percentage-speaking)
ColleenP (NH): the non-profit I work for gets many, many donations from our own clients - they are so grateful for help that when they have a tiny bit extra, they want to share it!
SylviaWoodman: Poor people need the support and encouragement that faith brings?
Elaine G-H: Learn Nothing Day always makes me laugh. Especially when people scratch their heads at first.
ChrisSanders: Indignation can get in the way of wonderment and awe
Sandra Dodd: Marta, just any one? Or Peaceful Parenting?
alexPolikowsky: Sandra 's talks can do that ;)
JennyC: yes, maybe that's it Sylvia
Sandra Dodd: I should make some more recordings. I should read Moving a Puddle. I did once, but the recording failed.
Marta BP: Just any one, really.
SylviaWoodman: Oh I like that idea Sandra!!!!
Elaine G-H: recordings are good. I like to do household tasks and listen at the same time. I'd love more recordings
Sandra Dodd: Sylvia, I don't believe in God, but I believe in religion.
JennyC: When I'm feeling out of sorts and crushed by the world, all it takes is finding one thing to feel blessed about to start thinking in terms of abundance rather than lack, of being inspired instead of beaten down
Marta BP: I LOVE that idea Sandra!
Sandra Dodd: It can make all the difference in someone feeling hopeless and hopeful
JennyC: yes, that's it exactly Sandra
alexPolikowsky: I have said that Sandra. For some religion has helped them when they were in a bad place.
SylviaWoodman: OK I missed a chunk in the middle making some lunch for the kids but was there an exchange about boycotts earlier? I've been feeling terribly guilty about chick-fil-a
Sandra Dodd: Chick-fil-a won't make or break laws or peace on earth. I wouldn't feel guilty.
Jill Parmer: Another thing I do with that, Marta (about feeling down about parents) is go and do the action that I would have wanted my parents to do. In order to change the way I think about it, or my automatic thoughts about that.
JennyC: and once a person can do that, you can find more awe in life and feel more joy
Jill Parmer: Turn toward the goodness you can do.
Marta BP: Yes Jill. I can see that it can also help.
Sandra Dodd: Jill's got a good point. Heal the disjointness by being the way you wish your parents had been, or could be. Act it out, with your child.
SylviaWoodman: Not to mention a mom-friend of mine who has 5 kids and was on public assistance landed a job there and it has changed her life and made her kids life so much better and more stable... and since they are closed on Sunday she is guaranteed at least one day off a week that they are home too!
Marta BP: Yes.
alexPolikowsky: Sylvia if you do not want to eat there do not but if your kids do then it is their choice. No need to burden them with politics.
Sandra Dodd: It's back to choices.
ColleenP (NH): that's what we do with Walmart - I don't buy things there - other people in my family do. So I'm boycotting but we're not - everyone in the family wins
JennyC: there are no Walmarts near me at all, so I never shop there anyway
ColleenP (NH): ah I wish there were no walmarts here, as then there would be so many other stores that have disappeared
Sandra Dodd: But what is NOT the right answer is to leave the child hungry because your choices seemed to be a corporation you wanted to boycott, and something that wasn't organic, and something from a shop you didn't respect because your husband used to go out with the owner's daughter, and meanwhile your real child is actually hungry
JennyC: although, they say they sell spongbob ice cream bars, so for that reason alone, I'd go there and buy a bunch of them
alexPolikowsky: I do not boycott walmart.. Their prices are low and they help us . We need to buy cheap. Priorities. MY kids and family first.
Sandra Dodd: Colleen, go easy on that belief.
ChrisSanders: I think appreciation is a big part of wonderment and awe and I think feeling indignant might be antithetical to being appreciative
Elaine G-H: alexPolikowsky we do the same. I'm glad we have Asda/Walmart here because we need to buy cheap
Sandra Dodd: People pine for Piggly Wiggly and other 1950's grocery stores owned by locals, but those stores and their shared discounts from being parts of chains put stores out of business that had been established in 1915, and something (amazon or who knows what) will put walmart out of business, and your having boycotted for a few decades won't change the march of progress.
alexPolikowsky: exactly. I also plant a garden for my veggies ( albeit a short season here).
ChrisSanders: There was a Piggly Wiggly in Charleston -- where Jill and I were last week
ColleenP (NH): Sandra - true - and Alex yes if it were important for financial reasons and walmart could be helpful to my family by saving us money I'd put my boycott aside
Sandra Dodd: Here's irony for you. Marty has a job at Target.
Sandra Dodd: He needs to wear khakis and a red shirt.
JennyC: that's great!
ColleenP (NH):
Sandra Dodd: They were out of his size of shirt, so we went to Penney's where they were more expensive, nicer, but still...
alexPolikowsky: HA Sandra ! Lol
Elaine G-H: I worked at McDonalds for a while and my brother made it to manager. I'd probably be eaten alive for that here
alexPolikowsky: WHY?
Sandra Dodd: For Elaine... Target and Walmart are similar, sort of competing chains. Target is a little more high class.
alexPolikowsky: My kids like McDonalds!
ColleenP (NH): do people everywhere say Tar-jay (sort of - but make it more French and not said Target) or is that a New England thing?
Elaine G-H: Sandra I've seen Target stuff online. I quite like the look of the stuff.
Sandra Dodd: For that in this chat or in the UK home ed group, Elain?
JennyC: hard g
Rebecca Allen: Everywhere, Colleen. :-)
Sandra Dodd: Humorous and occasional, but not for always, Colleen.
alexPolikowsky: hard G here too
Rebecca Allen: Yes, not always.
Elaine G-H: Uk home ed Sandra
ColleenP (NH): that cracked me up the first time I heard it - and yes, not always - for humor, but gosh for whatever reason I got fits of giggles the first time I heard it
JennyC: Target has luxury towels
alexPolikowsky: Elaine why do you think people would feel that way towards you here for having worked at McDonalds?
Sandra Dodd: When Montgomery Wards was that store (department store that was opening up everywhere, in the 1960's), people called it "Monkey Wards" sometimes.
Hannah: that's just snobbery though Elaine - I bet most people eat take out of one form or another even if it's not McDs
JennyC: I think that's interesting that a cheap retail store has luxury items
ChrisSanders: Colleen - around here, it depends on the neighborhood the Target is in. People say Tar-jay for one neighborhood and Targhetto for another-- not nice.
Sandra Dodd: Alex, not on this discussion, but UK home ed "community"
Hannah: although there do seem to be a lot of HEers here who do no sugar, no 'junk' food etc
ColleenP (NH): ooh no that's not nice Chris - I hadn't heard that version
Elaine G-H: McDonalds is hated by a lot of people
alexPolikowsky: AH!
JennyC: but they have a dollar menu!
Sandra Dodd: AH. Oh, Chris... We have "ghetto Smiths" to identify one particular grocery store, and people know which one it is. :-)
Elaine G-H: thanks for explaining Sandra
Sandra Dodd: Elaine, a lot of people hate as much as they possibly can.
Elaine G-H: "ghetto Smiths"?
JennyC: Smith's is a grocery chain, owned by Krogers I think
alexPolikowsky: hating things like McDs and Walmart and plastic toys is such a waste of energy~! Focus on the awe and the positive
JennyC: I'm sometimes in awe that some people can be soooo negative and exist in the world!
ColleenP (NH): Some people define themselves by what they hate - I'd rather be defined by love, even if I don't desire at this point to shop at Walmart ;)
...and our time was up, and the totally unrelated wind-down wasn't imprortant. So it fizzled out, but I've boldfaced some of my favorite parts.
Some is better than awenone
Chris.
A big mystery mark.
Then I figured it must be to mark an information booth.
People talked about cynicism being harmful.
Sandra Dodd:And it was easy for me to start to get sad about the thought of all that death, from tiny towns, who put up monuments later.
Sandra Dodd: But there is a glory and awe to it, too.
Yes. Plague memorials, too, but not as many of those.
To induce awe.
it might be something as simple as seeing a flower
or of washing up and taking some joy in just doing a task
Awards.
Contests and prize-giving.
Flower shows and competitions.
**ALL THE SOUNDS YOU HEAR WERE CREATED BY THE PIANO** (WITH SOME VOCALS AT THE END) STORY BEHIND THE SONG The idea: A couple months ago the 5 of us were gathered round a piano prepping for a video shoot scheduled for that day. We were brainstorming ideas when one of us (can't remember who!) got off task and starting flicking a piano string. Since all of us are poster children for ADHD, it wasn't long before ALL of us had joined in -- banging out a beat, plucking a string, or hitting keys. The brainstorming meeting had been sabotaged beyond repair, but another music video idea was born! The song: We went through several song possibilities before landing on "What Makes You Beautiful" by One Direction. We like this song because its catchy and the music, lyrics, and video passed our "sesame street" test (meaning family friendly). We thought about the ramifications of taking on a teenybopper boy band tune as five middle-aged married guys who are desperately holding on to their hairlines. One of us even has a son older than the guys in One Direction (we won't say who)
JennyC: Margaux's been watching "how it's made" and there are some very interesting and exciting and inspiring thingsBUT you know us -- we love a good challenge! This one was so fun to write ...
Those photos are goose bumpy.
Yes, it's finally here - Racing In Slow Motion IV The 4th edition of the original "Racing In Slow Motion" Series, 16 Minutes of pure racing footage. T
Robin B.: Watch it later - it's long. And on a big screen if you can.Playing it like different instruments. Very cool.
)
Sandra Dodd: Several of them. )
Sandra, can you give me an example of what it looks like to encourage awe rather than letting it develop naturally?
JennyC: the fact that my kids haven't read any.... very frowned upon
Sandra Dodd: Or expect other people to love whatever we love as much as we do.
Sandra Dodd: Some parents believe or act as though their own interests and preferences are objectively The Best Things. And that other things are bad/lame/inferior.
Not good for unschooling.
Not good for partnerships or families.
Sandra Dodd: And Nestle is not hindered one little bit by their fear.
I like that, Colleen.
Sandra Dodd: I pointed out that the problem was 25 years ago.
Sandra Dodd: He said yes, but they stopped for a while (shipping powdered baby formula to Africa) and then started up again.Robin thank you
Rebecca Allen: I was not only thinking it would make them sick, but that *I* wouldn't want people gawking at me if I was sick.
a kind of *smacks forehead in realisation*
ex: He wasn't breathing and now he is; oh it was JUST CPR.
Sandra Dodd: And without comment.
Sandra Dodd: For your own healing and fortification
Sandra Dodd: Goal? choose toward that.
Sandra Dodd: Not longterm overriding goal, maybe.
Sandra Dodd:Goal of the moment.
Sandra Dodd: Child hungry? Which is best. Nestle bar or Chick=Fil-A?
Sandra Dodd: (Joking... maybe)
ColleenP (NH): people first - causes second - but right now I'm ok with not shopping there
Sandra Dodd: We went to Walmart to buy those.Sandra - that is rather perfect
Sandra Dodd: odd.
A little
Elaine G-H: not a specific group
